[sh0k0nes]

There was a topic recently that turned away from what it was intended.
My view on the matter is:

There is no North-South divide or East-West divide.

There is only a dope-wack divide.
Bboy-eboy divide.
Repping-talking divide.
Known-unknown divide.

I'm at jams every week and I know who I see and who is just on the internet.
I see clips from jams in the UK and some are worse for the scene than good for it.
Turn the fucking lights off. Get decent DJ's. Get decent judges. SEED ur fucking battles!!

Forums have died because of the same reason. NO quality control. Any idiot would come on here talking shit and be listened to. Remember that time?
IT KILLED YOUR FORUM and u sat by and let it happen.
Those of us that knew what we were talking about kept doing our thing and all the talkers HAVE DONE NOTHING SINCE.
As a result U missed out on the good advice and WE kept getting better and better.
As a result U stayed exactly where u were and WE proved and continue proving our point.
Some of the people on here have been 'breakdancing' for years and are as anonymous in the real world as when they arrived.
Yet they have thousands of posts on here and bboyworld. Clueless.

Some of the people judging are NOT fit for the job. They have no experience of judging. Some of them don't even have the necessary criteria of paying attention.
Dancing, or being a dope dancer, and judging are 2 different things.
We've seen that. I have nothing personal against many of the people chosen to judge but they have no understanding of this artform or scene. Simple. Like it or not they will affect the way the scene goes for some of u and it'll get more shit, FOR U.

Commenting on Zorro's observation, maybe he's right but Manny, Abdul and Yujin are amongst the best qualified judges in London. They learnt from me. They know their shit. They are way past upcoming. They have proved themselves in countless battles and have an international presence.

I have been saying for years that traveling is part of the key. Regularly, I see Zorro, Just Roc, Foggy, Ling, Swifty and his son Ian, Clint and some of Rain(only recently), Knuckles, Manny, Spin, and my naughty kids(there may be 1 or 2 other's I missed but stop bullshitting like it's loads of people).
I'm not interested in mentioning people who go to one event a year or just hold up the wall when they are there.
Shit is wack.

U can agree or disagree.
But then judging from how ALL my students did this weekend I reckon I know what I'm talking about.
See u in the funny pages.

Kev

[M-Phatic F10]

Forums have died, maybe quality control has a part to do with it, so does the trend of Facebook/twitter and other mediums where people can vent or self publicise and market their event or whatever. Most discussions have happened over the years and rarely do discussions on forums end up being constructive when they do happen.

I think there are a range of problems out there right now which has fragmented the scene, saturation of competitions and events taking away the jam aspect, also making people stay local and taking the easy option. Those with promise happy being a big fish in a small pond staying in their post code and chasing the ladies, a lack of unity, could go on and on but I dont like being a negatron.

And the judging issue is still exactly where it was 10-15 years ago, there will always be debate on decisions and stating who's qualified and who isnt. Top judges will make mistakes, we're human after all, not machines who can calculate all aspects of the dance in a battle or recite each run in detail when you've been judging all day long. An agreed system will help matters and take it to a professional level, provide feedback, which would be official and would open up a lot of doors, but it wont solve all the issues.

I think Kev will have a different perspective to others on the whole UK & worldwide scene anyway regarding the travelling thing. You get paid to do it and it's your livelihood. You're totally immersed in the culture and to a certain extent pretty dependant on it. The majority have it as a part-time hobby and full-time interest.... what you might be failing to observe is that not everyone else who has any involvement is trying to get recognition and/or as much self-publicity out of the scene.

Really, the crux of the matter is, I still only see a handful of people in the UK capable of causing damage on an international scale. No different to how it's been for fookin ages. Soul Mavs are the first UK crew in a long time who are now hanging at that level. Kev has been smart in recruiting the most promising talent, other crews do it too, look at Vagabonds. Not enough are getting out into Europe and taking a few beatings to understand what it takes.

I do agree that the lights should be turned down at events, you want a vibe, you're not gonna get it with bright lights! The UK does have its fair share of decent DJ's though, maybe I've not been out enough recently to hear the bad ones, or maybe the decent ones are not getting involved.

Anyway, props to Sunni and Soul Mavs at the weekend, Sunni is the best prospect I've seen come out of the UK in a long long time. We need about another 20-30 Sunni's to come out from somewhere! Trinity are the only other crew I see successfully nurturing talent like that, although there are quite a few others out there who are now doing it. It's all about the next generation.

[sh0k0nes]

Justroc doesn't get paid to do it.
Manny doesn't get paid to do it.
Clint doesn't get paid to do it.
Knuckles doesn't get paid to do it.
...
Ure either a part of the scene or ure not.
No more excuses. Shit is old and the scene here is still ass.
And if people don't want recognition y even bother? These words aren't for them.

Even if 20 Sunni's come on the scene they'll get nowhere unless they get nurtured correctly.
Remember Lil Tricks? Kid Fresh? So many other's...If I'd have gotten hold of them early enough they'd be WINNING champs by now.
Talent is almost meaningless without guidance.

Always welcoming discussion, but like I said I know what I see.

Kev

[sh0k0nes]

And I respectfully disagree on the forum thing.
If they were being utilised as intended, for information exchange and building, they would be used.
There are loads on facebook being used for exactly that reason, but they have tight moderation.
Sadly, our scene attracts too many...erm...whatevers that destroy the integrity of the forum idea.
I still many healthy fora in my other interests.

Kev

[SLAMMO]

I'm not supposed to speak on this forum anymore due to letting my opinions getting me into trouble however I do act positively in everything I do for the scene and I also believe that what Poe, Freeze and me put together is one of the Dopest jams around.

Ya Don't Stop BBOY Burnout!

Yes it has a competition element but that's the only way to get heads to attend unfortunately? I really love to jam and take it back to it's roots but today to many people miss the point and only dance when they are told it's their turn at a comp?

Unfortunately the comp has become the reason why alot of people break? No hate seriously but I regard myself as a DOPE BBOY even if I don't battle on stage but then I had the gift of being apart of the 80's explosion!

I battle myself every day in training and cyphers but that's just me. I will however battle in comps more over the next 12 months but not because I have to to get noticed but because my kids are now ready to battle and I will lead them to the battle field.

I agree the right foundations should be added at the earliest stage and if comps are your thing then get out and do it internationally. It's the only way you gonna learn and get a name and eventually get to UK champs stage.

Some people bring big names to UK jams as great 8's or the equivalent but not many bring upcoming heads not yet made in the established scene. Their are loads of super dope BBOYS and BGIRLS out there not yet noticed on comp circuit.

All is dope but UK needs variety and different level challenges if it's to develop. It is also a turn off apparently for some who assume that the big names who are getting paid to be there will win and I have heard UK heads say what is the point of traveling to that jam?

The point is YOU SHOULD regardless because if you don't travel then this is your only chance to test yourself and develop. The jam is for you guys no other reason!!!!!

It is also essential to remember most people behind jams loss sleep, money and even friends to make shit happen so if you REAL then support period!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways I better get off this now before I invite criticism and anonymous hate.

Respect Kev for the work on the weekend the guys looked strong and the bond was mad tight!

Check out Ya Don't Stop 2010 video link 14k sound system, LED expensive lights, Dope graffiti backdrops and 100% focused on Cyphers!

We are defiantly doing it in 2012 and will be interesting who comes from UK.

Already we have about 20 confirmed from Sweden and they are dope people who will travel like myself self funded because we live for it and will make it happen regardless.

No one says you have to travel but if you wanna be recognized and respected as a BBOY/BGIRL then you have to as UK is very limited but getting much better and the only way UK will grow is if the people here develop and learn the REAL culture.

http://vimeo.com/26858757

I did do a post of this video link months ago but no one commented on it or gave any feedback?

[sh0k0nes]

Slammo.
Keep doing ur thing.
Take my advice.
Don't get into pointless arguments.
I been thru all that. Where are they now??
The more u argue with people the more important they feel.
I'm only talking about my experience.
Just do the damn thing and no one can tell u jack.
Trust me.

Kev

[SLAMMO]

True that man.

I always did learn the hard way LOL!

[Banner]

Going to half respond to this (time issues)....

Hopefully this is staying on topic, feel free to steer it back if its isn't...


Firstly the forum thing, yes this forum has slowly declined into sh*t. I can't see that people fail to understand that good discussion is healthy and can have a positive outcome, we're all learning and we should be making use of the tools we have to share information (a forum being just one tool).

As for judging, i'll try not to say too much for now but it is imperitive that we do have decent judges:

- Judging can steer the direction of the scene (e.g. people adapting their dance following a loss).

- Some people work damn hard for events, only to be denied by poor judging

- Judges are placed in a position of respect, should be whom people in the scene look up to knowledge wise.

Anyway, on a personal level i'm old enough and secure enough in myself not to worry so much about judging (possibly because unfortunately it is what it is here) but it definitely has an impact on the scene. However, finding the right judges is always an issue and definitely too many people out there that should be nowehere near a judging position (i'm tempted to name and shame), judge a battle on who whon, not what you prefer for f**k sake....

Quickly while there's time, its definitely interesting that some aspects of the scene really havn't evolved. I mean people still can't even throw down a few decent powermoves- scuffing your trainers while doing flares, handstand airflares etc. , its nearly as bad as it was a few years ago. Its like the blind leading the blind out there, people who can't even do windmills advising others on certain moves (if ya can't do the move keep it hush) and people being stupid enough to take the advice. Would you learn Maths from somebody who didn't veen have a Maths GCSE? thought not...

Travelling, think the point has pretty much been proved there. If anybody has ever been travelling for cultural reasons etc. you'll know what it can do for you in terms of learning, now apply to bboying...Funny how you see martial artists travel to Asia etc. all the time to perfect their craft..

Finally (for now), think what the one of the issues here is that as the scene grows and moves on and we all get older, its important that we don't try to stay relevent by bringing the new guys down (of course keep it real) but by contributing positively to the scene...

Input...

[swifty]

yes kev and banner you are right but......
wait a min there aint one ! There is only two groups of people that are reading this topic
1. Those that get it because they have done it (you know who you are and who you are not)
2. those that wont get it because they are sitting at home reading this whilst watching uk champs and all the other events from their bedroom.
Nuff said

[sh0k0nes]

Think u'd be surprised bro.
There's a 3rd group.
Lots of people lurk and don't say anything.
I'm often asked questions in the real world because I've made it clear on here that I'm approachable.

Kev

[unity]

hah i'm a lurker...

Kev, please could you expand on seeding judges? The jams I've been involved in organising have never been seeded because people said it would be unfair to judge people before they've battled that day. By seeding you're putting pre-conceived ideas on who's the best before seeing them battle that particular day. It was also thought that doing it this way would give those 'expected' to get knocked out early, if seeded against those 'expected' to win, a fairer chance.

When you see clips from jams which you think are worse for the scene than good - do you tell the organisers?

thanks x

[sh0k0nes]

Hello sir.
U can seed battles using whatever criteria u want.
Y should 2 guys from the same crew support ur jam if there's a chance they may get drawn together in the first round? They can do that at training. Especially if they have to travel far.
So u could use the criteria of location. Or affiliation.
In terms of level, I don't understand how it can be unfair. It just makes sense.
U really want the 2 best guys or crews to face each other in the 1st round?
Makes no sense. Then the rest of the event is a washout and u get a shitty final. Seen it happen.
Or when one side is imbalanced with all the crap people. Painful to watch!!
It's also the benefit of building ur name. One of the perks if u like. Seed and u'll get the best, most consistent all round battles. There can always be upsets which make it even more interesting.

Regarding shitty jams. Those organisers don't care what I think. They know it all already.
If u don't see me there and there isn't a good reason, that's my protest.
I don't support wack shit.
My kids are starting to do the same.

Kev

[bawbag]

All hail the gods

[sh0k0nes]

I'd also like to dispel another popular myth.

I paid my own way to BOTY 96' and '97. Rock Steady Anniversary '96 and '97.
To Korea for Match One Skills.
I paid my own way and dj'ed at various Freestyle Sessions, Mighty 4's and BBoy Summits.
I paid my own way and dj'ed at BOTY USA to support Poe1.
United Styles in Boston to support my Floorlords family.

Ure either in the scene and a part of the community or ure not.
U either support it's growth by whatever means or u don't.

I'll also be paying my own way to Outbreak in Orlando this year.

Kev

ps I think I entered 3 international battles this year. If some old ass DJ is entering more jams than supposed bboys find a new hobby.

[FLOWREXsac]

Great thread, lots to talk about and lots of opinions...

1, Divides
True say, there does however seem to be a divide between the distances people travel from either the north or the south to hit up jams, I put this down to a huge number of jams happening now which differs from 10 yrs ago, It seems that there are so many jams now that people don't seem to travel as far, I think the fact that people find the money and means to be able to travel as often and as far they do now anyway astounding and respect to them for supporting what they can. On E-boys vs Bboys, repping vs talking ... I am seeing tons of new faces becoming regulars at northern jams and going hard, as you said the forums have been dead so I wouldn't credit them with those titles simply because they are unknown at the moment. Historically yeah I would say maybe you're right on this but I don't think this is the case now. Feel free to try and slate me but I spend most weekends at UK Jams...Im on the dole and dont have money to travel internationally with my other commitments, plus with the level of my breaking I would be doing the UK rep a lot more harm than good if I were repping.

2. Jams (lights, Djs etc)
I agree turn the lights off, jams in sports centres, basketball courts and youth clubs and other large vacuous spaces are hard to manage, they take so much energy to get hype and probably inhibit people from going off, but I'd say though that some of these daytime jams have their place too...in particular, jams used to be held in clubs and in memory used to be tons more fun and have a great atmosphere with dope circles aswell as the battles. but day jams have become more and more frequent and at the same time, the level of the new talent and younger talent has come through...these kids would have struggled to have got into licensed premises with young dancers like kid karam etc coming through the ranks....if they were just resigned to going to training they may not get the hunger they have. I do accept though that jams could simply be in smaller places with the lights off and have a better atmosphere....

....On Judges...I agree I always try my best to get good judges for the jams I run, tuff tim, ducky, swift-rock to name a few but a lot of the time, promoters need to know what makes a judge and who is deemed as a good judge, as a promoter your success relies upon the event team being good and chosen for their skills, dyzee proposes judging accreditation in his system, I think it's an interesting idea but at the same time I am not confident about how achievable it could be as everything rests on opinion, top judges again cost top money...when you have a budget of £500 of your money to run a jam from your wages after covering your rent, and food for the month the prospect of paying judges, hosts and dj's £150 each plus travel, plus accommodation, plus prize money for battles, plus helping people out with their travel to the jam, plus the endless line of heads wanting free entry it becomes apparent that these costs amount to much more and put the promoter under pressure....It is of course easy to say don't run the jam or get sponsorship but there are issues from both of those points...

a) don't run the jam and then it doesn't happen; I'd rather run a jam to be honest
get sponsorship; I have worked in sponsorship for many years even as a full time profession working for the Birmingham NEC as head of sponsorship and I can tell you, that the sponsorship market is currently incredibly difficult to negotiate and is very affected by the recession and also by location...In many cases it is impossible to leverage cash sponsorship from any brand unless you are working in main stream sports, are based in London or have an audience of less than 10,000 people....over the years I have personally sponsored a number of jams run by new promoters with my own money such as Hektic's event in scotland and a few more....even still the financial side of running jams can ruin some people.

Banner, your points on the issues with Bad judging are really spot on and it's given me food for thought not just about the immediate affect of the judges decisions but the other point about it stunting the development of bboys when reacting to feedback from the judges for their losses.

On DJ's I think that we have some good DJ's here in the UK, not everyone can afford the top dollar to put on the best or most renowned DJ's from europe and around the country, if it is a stipulation to fly DJ's in and to need to get DJ's at top dollar than many of the smaller jams could not actually afford to run, also the amount of DJ's playing services the amount of jams. If those best DJs about were affordable for the smaller promoters I am more than sure people would make as best use of them as they could. I am happy with DJ Rasp at my jams as he is keen to play and does a good job, he plays not only breaks on loop through serato but some great hype hip hop and keeps things moving...he is also a great turntablist in his own right as the UK IDA Champion and has repped the UK in the world DMC Championships. There are new dj's coming through like wispa, and p-nut...I enjoy hearing them play and the jams i hear them at always have dancers going off to their tunes....In my opinion the two best DJ's to play a jam in the UK are yourself (not an ass-kiss) and Timber but unfortunately for me I can not afford the cost of getting either of you over a lot of the time, and have in recent years been unlucky with availability when I have tried.

4, Seeding Battles; I agree that seeding battles is the best way to run a jam, this is actually something I learned from you Kev and I have listened, implemented and followed this in my jams since, the reason I seed is because I have 8 international crews and 8 Uk crews at my jam and I think it is better that these Uk crews get the chance to battle Internationals so they can learn from the experience and not just battle the same crew as the week before in another UK jam. Last year this paid off with BTC beating arcopom and reckless crew and being the first Tear It Up champs...I am happy to have seen this and the finals were hype. Also It is fair to seed, if you enter a battle and you truly went to win then it would not matter who you had to battle to reach the finals and ultimately win....if you are going to win it should be because you are the best and not because you had a lucky draw. Great battles are not one sided they are fierce and everyone has to go all out to win. Some promoters choose to pick names from a hat and I don't condemn this as it makes people feel like things are fairer but you do run the risk of drawing some one sided battles or battles where two dancers from the same crew end up battling which can negate the point of travelling sometimes.

5. On the forum
You are right it has been dead for a long time, people use the the forums mainly to promote their jams more than discussing what goes on in the scene, and true it is because of some of the internet shit talking and stupid beefs...It used to be though that these shit talking sessions finished with a battle where it would get sorted rather than endless arguments. I think beef followed up by battles used to be common place and made for some interesting battles, now people only seem to battle because their names were drawn in a competition, I think there should be both happening. I don't think the shit talking should be encouraged but I do think people should be allowed to see what they think...otherwise battles will become more and more sterile...Zzzzzzz. If the older heads do not continue to spread knowledge via the forums then the younger next gen heads will simply not get the info or question it...I would love to see more debate going on in here. I do think that people make a lot of use of facebook for promoting rather than using the forums and the community as a whole is linked through peoples facebook friends a lot of the time. I have a UK Bboy facebook group open now but am thinking on how best to operate it so it is not simply a wall of flyers etc. if anyone wants to join it is at .... https://www.facebook...58873050847758/

Finally Mike Jeffs the person who created the site has been unable to keep things up recently with some very pressing other commitments so we the admins are the ones who need to champion this thing for the moment if we are to keep people coming, I have been slacking a lot recently with my end of year law exams just finished and travelling during the summer months and I need as much help as you or any of the other admins to can commit. I think there are lots of jams who use the forums to promote their events but should also be working with us to promote the forum to the new generations within the current scene who are not members, not active on the boards and just use bboyworld or facebook...rather than it saying it is dead, how do you think it can be improved in the immediate sense if the quality control is maintained.

[sh0k0nes]

Thank u for ur feedback Flow.
We can all learn thru discussion. It's what forums were designed for.
We don't all have to agree, that's not the point.
It's just a place to share experiences and ideas, congratulate each other, and even cuss a lil sometimes.
No point getting butt hurt if someone has a different view. Or taking criticism personally.

Btw, Dyzees system attempts to remove all bias and subjectiveness, to increase accountability and transparency, and I think it goes a long way to doing that.

Kev

[unity]

Thanks for the info on seeding, and we did do it one time so that local crews didn't battle each other, it worked well and I'd definately do that again. I do get what you're saying about making it a better balanced competition and making for better finals, but one of the problems with judging on opinion only is that people have preconceived ideas on who will win a battle going in, and this may add to it. Dyzee's system seems to be the only idea out there that addresses this.

The only way that organisers of 'shitty' jams will learn how to put on a good jam is by people telling them what they're doing wrong, and how to make it better. If this happens and they don't listen, then other people need to know why their jam is being boycotted, so that other organisers can learn from this, and other people can also boycott. Otherwise shit jams will continue, and this does nothing to improve anything. THat's why forums such as this are useful if used constructively. Ther's a facebook page for organisers of jams to exchange ideas, but alot of it is people promoting as you said flow. By the way u forgot to put the link to the ukbboy fb.

When I first got into breaking i found this site and trawled it for hours all the old threads getting all the information I could. Now I get excited when a thread like this comes up, as a couple have recently, as it means I can learn more. Keep the info coming because without it we can't grow. thanks again x

[sh0k0nes]

It's cool man. At the end of the day we should all be here to help each other even if it's through criticism.
And it's a 2 way street. People need to ask more questions.

Kev

[FLOWREXsac]

true say kev...

on dyzees system i do agree it would be brilliant but i cant understand how its implementation can happen, once you take the opinions out of hip hop and standardise everything doesn't it become something else...also who judges who can judge...who chooses who is allowed to judge, and if those judges are all busy, what then does the promoter not get to put the jam on or do at the shunning of other people because it didnt fit with regulations...finally what cost do the new accredited judges charge to the promoter...im not talkng about me as I am not promoting or organising much anymore but smaller or newer promoters/bboys who cant afford the fees....these may all sound like complaints but these are my concerns on it. I think if there is away to make things more transparent but I think the subjectivity in opinions through all of the elements is an important part of hip hop. people being able to have their opinions makes things interesting. For the record i think a lot of what dyzee was talking about sounds amazing, but at the same time I just don't know how that can be acheieved.

Unity the facebook group is
https://www.facebook...58873050847758/

[swifty]

@kev and Flowrex
Tell me what is dyzeesa system ?